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AndrewCollas
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Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
Use this thread to discuss revisions to the power boosts and complications please.
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"The English language is the product of Norman invaders attempting to pick up AngloSaxon women. The resulting language is about as legitimate as the resulting offspring." — From the Internet

9/2/2012, 5:23 pm

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TGIDragonfly
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
Hey folks!
This is a response to a conversation that started over on the General thread, but which now fits better over here.
The issue is concerns Armor Piercing and Tough Defense.
quote: Darkpaladin67 wrote:
The main problem is because you give up one die due to the cost of the boost.
6d blast cost the same as a 5d blast armor piercing which cost the same as 4d +2 AP.
6D average roll is 21
5d AP is 4d+6 = 20 Average, or 17.5 w/o armor
4d +2AP is 2d+12 = 19 average or 14 w/o armor.
Okay, so I'm not particularly mathematically inclined, but I think this math is wrong. I did a little research, stumbled across the following website (http://anydice.com/), plugged in some numbers, and came away with some interesting results.
My first test compared 5d6 and 4d6+6. I came away with the following.
1) At 5d6 the curve tops off at 17 and 18. Apparently, you have a 10.03% chance of rolling a 17. You also have a 10.03% chance of rolling an 18. Percentage chances to roll numbers above or below that drop significantly.
2) At 4d6+6 the curve tops off at 20. You have an 11.27% chance of rolling a 20. Percentage chances of rolling above or below 20 drop significantly. You have a 10.8% chance of rolling a 19. You also have a 10.8% chance of rolling a 21.
3) So, with 5d6 you have a 20.06% chance to roll 1718. That's where the numbers tend to group. With 4d6+6 you have a 32.87% chance of rolling a 1921. Again, that's where the numbers tend to group.
4) You also have to factor in that with 5d6 you have a 1.62% chance of rolling less than 10 on the result (compared to the 0% chance of rolling 9 or less on 4d6+6). This is very important in SUPERS!, where how much you beat your opponent matters a great deal when determining damage.
Given these numbers 4d6+6 is significantly better than 5d6.
I ran numbers comparing 3d6 and 2d6+6 and came up with similar results.
Again  I'm NOT a mathmatician. Quite the opposite. I'm one of those humanities guys. I just had an intuitive sense that this was wrong, based on my experiences with the system. Going on that hunch, I dug up these numbers. I am, however, more than willing to be proven wrong. I just want to make certain that the math is right before we go changing anything with the rules.
All the best!
Dragonfly
Last edited by TGIDragonfly, 9/2/2012, 7:14 pm

9/2/2012, 7:09 pm

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Darkpaladin67
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
Your math is true... if we were comparing 5d6 to 4d6+6. Remember, you sacrificed one die for the cost of the boost, so technically, you would be comparing 5d6 to 3d6+6.
Blast of 5D(does 5d6 damage)... cost 5D
Blast of 4D + Armor Piercing (does 3d6+6 damage)... cost of 5D
And this would only be the case if your opponent is wearing armor. If he choose to defend with another ability... or if he didn't have armor, you would only be rolling a straight 4d6.
However, I would be interested in seeing how the probablity curves match up for this.
Last edited by Darkpaladin67, 9/2/2012, 7:42 pm

9/2/2012, 7:29 pm

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TGIDragonfly
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
quote: Darkpaladin67 wrote:
Your math is true... if we were comparing 5d6 to 4d6+6. Remember, you sacrificed one die for the cost of the boost, so technically, you would be comparing 5d6 to 3d6+6.
Blast of 5D(does 5d6 damage)... cost 5D
Blast of 4D + Armor Piercing (does 3d6+6 damage)... cost of 5D
However, I would be interested in seeing how the probablity curves match up for this.
Doh! I see what I did!
You are very right. Here is how the numbers look when I compare 5d6 with 3d6+6.
1) At 5d6 the curve tops off at 17 and 18. Apparently, you have a 10.03% chance of rolling a 17. You also have a 10.03% chance of rolling an 18. Percentage chances to roll numbers above or below that drop significantly.
2) At 3d6+6 the curve tops off at 16 and 17. You have a 12.5% chance of rolling a 16. You also have a 12.5% chance of rolling a 17. Percentage chances to roll numbers above or below that drop significantly.
3) So, with 5d6 you have a 20.06% chance to roll 1718. That's where the numbers tend to group. With 3d6+6 you have a 25% chance of rolling a 1617. Again, that's where the numbers tend to group.
4) With a 5d6 you have a 38.96% chance of rolling 1619. With 3d6+6 you have a 48.14% chance of rolling a 1518.
5) You still have to factor in that with 5d6 you have a chance of rolling 58 compared to the 0% chance that you have of rolling 8 or less with 3d6+6, and this continues to be very important in SUPERS!, where how much you beat your opponent matters a great deal when determining damage.
6) This potential for rolling low on 5d6, however, needs to be balanced against the fact that you can roll results of 2530 on 5d6, compared to the 0% chance of doing so on 3d6+6.
The picture here is interesting. Although the average roll is one point less on the 3d6+6, you have a significantly higher chance of rolling in that middle range. Again  this is particularly important when it comes to resisting damage in SUPERS!. In some ways, it makes your defenses more steady. More reliable. That could be appealing, depending on your style of play.
With attacks, it seems more problematic. While I, personally, value reliability in Defense, I tend to like more wideranging probablities when it comes to delivering damage.
Whether or not Tough Defense and Armor Piercing are worth it in the RAW probably depends on a number of factors.
If your Judge caps Powers at a certain die code, but rules that Boosts can exceed the cap, then they are probably worthwhile. Style of play might also play a role.
I still think that Tough Defense might be worth it, for the reliability reasons that I mentioned above.
I think I agree with you with regards to Armor Piercing. How, specifically, does your house rule work? Personally, I think it might be cool if AP subtracted 1D from the Defender's armor value per die in the Boost. I think an opposing Boost: Tough Defense, would be good in terms of negating dice of AP.
That aside, given the numbers above, do you think that something that works like the current version of Tough Defense (maybe renamed Reliable Defense) would be worthwhile?
All the best,
Dragonfly

9/2/2012, 8:17 pm

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Darkpaladin67
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
Actually, I feel that even without the reduction of dice, the change in probability is not significant enough to warrent the purchase of the boost in favor of some of the other boosts. AP cancelling out Armout dice is little different than the standard power roll.
For your consideration here is what our house rule does...
ARMOUR PIERCING
Armour piercing is a boost that costs 1D. If you are using someone who has Armour as a defence, they cannot use the Armour power to defend against your attack. They may still defend against the attack using fortitude, reflexes or some other power.
IMPERVIOUS DEFENCE
This boost costs 1D and can be applied to any defence power. The boost allows you to ignore any attack that is of less dice than your defense. If an attack does not do damage,it is still considered a use of the defensive power and as such, the power cannot be used again this turn. (Or in the case of Armour, is reduced by 1D).
TOUGH DEFENCE
You can apply this boost to the Armour power. It is a 1D boost. If you have touch defense, you can still use your Armour Power against Armour Piercing attacks.

9/2/2012, 8:39 pm

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AndrewCollas
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
Given that Tough Defense is universal and Armour Piercing is situational, would there be room for a "Power Attack" boost that does what Tough Defense does? To show someone who has a baselevel of damage, ala say Darksied's Omega Beams?
Just thinking out loud.
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"The English language is the product of Norman invaders attempting to pick up AngloSaxon women. The resulting language is about as legitimate as the resulting offspring." — From the Internet

9/2/2012, 9:06 pm

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Darkpaladin67
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
A couple of notes on Area of Effect and Split attack. What is the area of 'area of affect. How much do I need to fill a room, cover a building or a city?
I do not like the idea of having to buy multiple levels of a boost. What would be the downside of have the boost purchased once, at the cost of 1D? Then when the boost is used, the power is reduced by the amount the boost is used.
For example, if you have a 4d split attack power (costing 5D in character
creation), you can split for additional targets with a corresponding reduction in dice. 4D split could effect 1 targets at 4d, or 2 targets at 3d, etc.
The rules as written for split attack divide the number of dice by half. However most of
the powers tend to be exponential instead of
linear, therefore a half strength power is at a reduction of one dice, not half the dice.
In order to keep split attack distinct from area affect, simply emphasize that with area affect, the power effects everyone in the area (friend or foe).
As with the proposal above, with a reduction in dice you can effect a larger area. I have a 4D gas attack (area affect). It can affect one target at 4D, all targets within hand to hand distance from each other at 3D, attack a small room of people for 2D, or an auditorium for 1D.

9/3/2012, 2:43 pm

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AndrewCollas
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
Hard to do without ranges, something I seem to recall most everyone was adamantly against.
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"The English language is the product of Norman invaders attempting to pick up AngloSaxon women. The resulting language is about as legitimate as the resulting offspring." — From the Internet

9/3/2012, 3:18 pm

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Darkpaladin67
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
I agree that specific ranges would be not needed. I do not want a miniatures tactical simulation game. However certain benchmarks would be useful. We have benchmarks for Superstrength and Flight speeds to determine who much a character can lift or hwo fast he can fly.
it doesn't have to be in terms of linear dimentions. It could be in vague terms.
Close area
Room Sized
House Sized
City Sized
Planet sized
etc.

9/3/2012, 3:55 pm

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AndrewCollas
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Re: Revised Supers!  Power Boosts & Complications
In this case I will let other heads talk, as I am going to watch.
I do like your alternates on AP, Tough Defense and Impervious Defense, just one question though on the latter...
If Giantess has Armour (Boost: Impervious Defense) 5D. She is attacked 4 times.
First attacker has a 3D power blast... no effect.
Second has an ice blast of 3D, again no damage.
Third attacker has a 4D Electricity attack, well now her armour was 5D but now it is 3D...
It seems like a diminishing return, but note I also am not a fan of the ablative armour concept of losing dice on that.
How about instead, it costs 2D to buy Hardened Defense and you DON'T lose a D everytime you defend with it? I dunno...
Thinking out loud.
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"The English language is the product of Norman invaders attempting to pick up AngloSaxon women. The resulting language is about as legitimate as the resulting offspring." — From the Internet

9/3/2012, 11:07 pm

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